New Results & Next Steps for Group 7

The DNA results of a new member of the Ryan Project have recently come back from the lab and this has allowed us to add several new members to Group 7 of the DNA Project.

Who does the new member match?

The new member (B346403) has 1 match at 37 markers (another Ryan) and 56 at the 25-marker level, including a second Ryan (310545). The first match is currently Ungrouped but the second match (310545) belongs to Group 7 which has the following SNP Progression (ie the SNPs that define each branching point down to where he sits on the Tree of Mankind):

• R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S6365 > Z16361 > Z16372 > Z18080/BY184 > Z18079/BY182

Looking at the terminal SNPs of the new member's matches at the 25-marker level (and assessing where these fall on the Tree of Mankind), gives us the following info:

• BY11277 … below BY182 thus: BY182 > M2775 > ZS5207 > BY11277
• BY182 (member 310545)
• BY184 … 1 step above BY182
• BY20805 … a chance match with a SNP Progression thus: U106 … > Z301 > L48 … >Z30 … > Z2 > Z7 > Z8 > FGC5264 > BY20805 (i.e. a completely different branch)
• BY42404 … 2 steps below BY182 (Nicholson)
• L513 x2 … the subclade SNP
• M2775 … 1 step below BY182 (Nicholson)
• Z25289 x3 … another completely different branch below Z30
• ZS5210 … 1 step below BY182 (Nicholson)

This indicates that most of the new member's 25-marker matches (who have SNP data) fall on or below the BY182 branch of the Tree of Mankind (as does member 310545) and so I am reasonably confident that the new member does too. As a result, I have placed him and the first Ryan match (previously Ungrouped) in the same group as 310545 (i.e. Group 7). You can see this on the DNA Results page here.

The DNA results for Group 7 (this group has 4 members but one member has his results settings set to default and therefore they are not displayed - see how to change this in the Next Steps section below)

We could check that this placement of the new member is correct by doing the Big Y test ($650) or the cheaper R-S6365 SNP Pack ($119 - see SNPs covered at the end of this post) or the single SNP BY182 ($39). However, the Big Y is the preferred test in this situation as it will help identify branches “downstream” of BY182 and will eventually identify if there is a Ryan-specific branch for this particular genetic group. 

Where does Group 7 sit on the Tree of Mankind?

You can see a diagram of the BY182 portion of the Tree of Mankind below (which is taken from here … http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=510&star=false). Based on the number of SNPs in the Nicholson blocks, BY182 is (very) approximately 2250 years old. The Group 7 Ryan’s lie somewhere below this … and a lot can happen in 2250 years! Hence Big Y testing of two group members would be very informative and would probably identify several “more downstream” branches for this Ryan group below BY182.

The Big Tree's version of the Tree of Mankind showing the BY182 branch in the middle

The R-L513 & Subclades project provides a little bit more detail than the Big Tree diagram above. The Ryan portion is in the middle of the large circular blob on the right, above the blue (Nicholson) oval. 

Mike Walsh's diagram of the L513 branch of the Tree of Mankind

All members of the Ryan project should join the relevant Haplogroup projects and for Group 7 members, the relevant project is the R-L513 & Subclades project.

Where is Group 7 from?

Only one of the members in Group 7 has indicated the exact birth location of their MDKA (Most Distant Known Ancestor) and this is Cork, Ireland … so this is one clue to where this group possibly originated. 

Another clue to the origin of this genetic group could potentially be gleaned from the surnames on the neighbouring branches of the Tree of Mankind, and from the close matches identified by the relevant Haplogroup Project (in this case the R-L513 & Subclades project). These include the surnames indicated below. Note that the O’Brien individual gives Kerry as his MDKA’s birth location (Kerry is the neighbouring county to Cork).

BY182+ individuals, as identified by the R-L513 & Subclades project.

Unfortunately, Surname Distribution maps for each of these names do not suggest a specific most likely location for the origins of this group of Ryan’s. You can see a selection of these maps at the end of this post.

All project members should fill in their own MDKA info on their FTDNA Genealogy page using the following format (see item 2 here for instructions - http://ryandnaproject.blogspot.com/p/getting-most-out-of-your-dna-test.html):

• James RYAN b1835 Shallee, Tipp d1879 Longstone, Tipp m Kathy BURKE

Having this information is essential for determining where the various genetic groups in the project originated.

How closely related is the new member to his closest matches?

The new project member has a Genetic Distance (GD) of 4/37 to his first Ryan match (i.e. 4 steps away from an exact match) and a GD of 5/37 to 310545  Consequently, the TiP Report tool predicts he and the first Ryan match share a common Ryan ancestor about 6 generations ago (90% Confidence Interval 1-14 gens) and he & 310545 share one about 8 generations ago (90% CI 3-18 gens). 

These TMRCA estimates (i.e. Time to Most recent Common Ancestor) translate into a birth year for the common ancestor of about 1770 (1580-1920) and 1710 (1410-1860) with both matches respectively. Note the wide range around the mid-point estimates - these indicate how inexact these TMRCA estimates actually are and (in general) they should never be relied upon. Also of note, the mid-point estimates (1770 & 1710) are probably beyond the reach of documentary records.

Next Steps for Group 7

All members should update their MDKA information as indicated above. Having the birth location of the MDKA for each member of the project is essential.

At least two members of the group should undertake Big Y testing. This will help firmly identify on which downstream branch of the Tree of Mankind these Ryans sit.

All project members are encouraged to allow their results to be displayed on the public DNA Results page here. This allows you to see your results without having to log in to your account. To allow public sharing, simply follow these steps:

• log in to your FTDNA account, 
• hover over your name in the top right, 
• click on Privacy & Sharing, 
• scroll down to Project Sharing, 
• and tick the "Opt in to Sharing" box beside the first option "Group Project Profile". These results are pseudonymised (i.e. your name is not displayed) and so your identity is kept private.

Maurice Gleeson

June 2018

The SNP markers covered by the S6365 SNP pack are indicated below. The ones of relevance to Group 7 are highlighted in yellow.

SNP Pack

R1b - S6365 SNP Pack  Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree: CTS3087, BY182, BY404, Z16372, Z16377, Z16383, BY16, FGC11788, Z16386, Z17801, Z17807, Z16390, Z16392, Z16395, BY359, BY360, L1333, BY17, BY553, BY554, ZW02, ZW04, BY3092, Z17909, Z16400, Z16403, CTS11744, CTS6621, M2775, BY416, BY184, BY2745, S6365, Z16409, Z16404, BY402, Z16407, Z17624, Z17626, Z17627, Z17628, BY390, FGC32363, BY3150, BY3151, BY3153, FGC11791, BY2926, S8120, BY4794, BY11261, BY11267, BY11262, BY11269, FGC31789, FGC31790, Z16410, Z16416, Z16405, Z16408, Z16402, Z16411, Z16412, ZW01, ZW09, FGC46414, FGC46415, FGC46416, FGC46420, S8124, BY11253, Z17629, FGC13421, FGC13422, BY11289, Z17630, FGC13411, CTS750, Z16362, Z16365, Z16366, Z16371, BY11280, A11235, CTS10651, BY392, BY393, BY394, F2338, ZS5209, ZS5211, ZS5213, BY11266, BY11264, BY11274, BY11279, BY11271, BY11252, BY11257, FGC34075, FGC34076, ZW05, BY11255, FGC36485, FGC36487, ZW22, ZW23, BY11281, FGC31837, FGC31841, ZW15, ZW14, BY11285, BY361, BY362, BY363, BY364, FGC11827, Z16387, Z16388, Z16389, Z16396, FGC32640, BY11283, BY11259, BY11287, Z17805, Z17806, Z17808, Z17809, Z17810, BY2863, Z16374, Z16376, Z16380, Z16381, Z16373, BY11251, BY11273, BY405, BY407, BY408, BY11277, BY11278, BY11276, BY11282, BY11256, BY11260, BY11272, BY11284, BY11286, BY11290, BY11291, BY11263, BY11270, BY391, ZW10, ZW11, BY11265, BY11254, FGC32195, FGC32196 Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree: Z16363, BY11258, BY11268, BY11275, FGC31902

Surname Distribution maps of the close genetic cousins to the Group 7 Ryan's are below. These are from http://forebears.co.uk/surnames. There is no definite pattern that emerges from these maps to suggest a place of origin for the Ryan's of Group 7.