A lot has been going on behind the scenes with the Ryan DNA Project. Back in May 2021 we made an appeal for funding to test Ryans with extensive lineages. The theory being that they could enhance the “scaffolding” of the genetic family tree (based on DNA test results) and help take some Ryan members back further in their Ryan lineages. Following an extensive research effort (by co-admins Derek Ryan and Jamee Ryan Carlin), the good news is that we have been reasonably successful in our attempts.
Firstly, a few words by way of background. Today the Ryan name is particularly prevalent in Tipperary, to where many Ryans are supposed to have migrated en masse from Carlow sometime in the 1200s or 1300s (see previous post). This divides the Ryans into two major branches – the Ryans of Idrone (who stayed behind in Carlow) and the Ryans of Owney & Owneybeg (who moved to Tipperary/Limerick). The noted scholar John O’Donovan (1806-1861) maintained that the two branches were distinct, whilst others maintained that they were “of the same stock” (see the Notes section here). In time, DNA could certainly help address this specific question and we hope to explore this further in a subsequent article.
Group 2 is thought to represent the Ryans of Tipperary/Limerick for the following reasons:
- It is the largest group within the project.
- Many of the group members have earliest known ancestors (EKA) from Tipperary and Limerick (see previous post).
- The overarching DNA marker for this group (M756) has an age estimate (950 AD) that falls within the timeframe for the emergence of surnames in Ireland (see previous post here). [1] So our current working theory is that the progenitor of the Ryan surname for Group 2 carried this DNA marker (M756) and passed it on to all his descendants (along with the Ryan surname).
Currently there are 136 people in this group, but the number is increasing all the time as new test-takers join the Ryan DNA Project.
Ryans with extensive lineages
In addition to the two major divisions noted above (the Ryans of Idrone, and the Ryans of Owney/Owneybeg), several prominent families within the broader Ryan clan are documented in surviving genealogical records, including the following:
1. Ryans of Scarteen, Co. Limerick, who have a pedigree that goes back to the 1640s … see https://landedestates.ie/estate/2425
2. Ryans of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary, who have a pedigree that goes back to 1731 at least, possibly the mid-1600s, and maybe the mid-1500s … see https://landedestates.ie/estate/2521
3. Ryans of Inch House, Eliogarty, Co. Tipperary, who have a pedigree that goes back to the late 1600s … see https://landedestates.ie/estate/2688
4. Ryans of Gortkelly, Co. Tipperary. They leased land from the Ryans of Inch and their pedigree goes back to the 1740s … https://landedestates.ie/estate/3618
5. Ryans of Kilheffernan, Killaloan, Co. Tipperary. Their Ryan pedigree goes back to the early 1700s … https://landedestates.ie/estate/3188
6. Ryans of Thurles, Co. Tipperary. Their pedigree goes back to 1747 …https://landedestates.ie/estate/3683
So far, we have been able to trace a direct-male-line descendant of the Ryans of Scarteen and the Ryans of Ballymackeogh and get them Big-Y-tested. Their results are discussed below.
The position of Group 2 on the Tree of Mankind
The overarching DNA marker for the Ryans of Group 2 is M756, which arose in some unknown Ryan ancestor who was born sometime around 950 AD (or thereabouts). Below M756, there are 6 major sub-branches (currently), each representing descendant lines of the Group 2 progenitor. More sub-branches may be added as new Big-Y results become available.
Below are the major sub-branches that emerged in medieval times (including crude dates for when each of the branches arose). A more comprehensive version of the genetic family tree for Ryan Group 2 can be found within FTDNA’s Time Tree and Group Time Tree. These are quite big and screenshots of the current structure are included at the end of this article. The most recent versions of the Time Tree and Group Time Tree can always be seen on the FTDNA website by clicking the links above.
Key: TMRCA, Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor;
95% CI, 95% Confidence Interval
Results of testing Ryan men with extensive lineages
Ryans of Scarteen
The first of our new test-takers with an extensive lineage is a descendant of the Ryans of Scarteen (ROS1). He has a 9-generation Ryan pedigree that goes back to 1642. [2] Initially this family had settled in Ballyvistea, Co. Tipperary, near the Limerick border. Renowned for their association with the Scarteen Hunt, the Ryans of Scarteen have maintained the Scarteen (Black and Tan) Hounds since the 18th century. Their estate, Scarteen House, located near Knocklong, Co. Limerick, has been the family's base since the 1750s. The Ryans' dedication to hunting, and the preservation of the unique Kerry Beagle breed, has made them prominent figures in Ireland's hunting heritage.
Here is the (anonymized) pedigree for test-taker ROS1:
1. Thaddeus Ryan (1642-1740) m Catherine Hayes2. John Ryan (1699-1724) m Ms O’Brien3. John Ryan (1722-1810) m Eliza O’Brien … moved from Ballykeveen to Ballyvistea in 17554. Thaddeus Richard Ryan (1760-1843) m Helen Howley5. John Ryan (1800-1863) m Alicia McKnight Hartigan6. Thaddeus Richard Ryan (1837-1905) m Gwendoline Power7. John Joseph Ryan (1871-1954) m Anita Purcell8. Father of test-taker9. Test-taker (ROS1)
The Big-Y results for ROS1 show that he does indeed belong in Group 2 and sits on a branch of the Tree of Mankind characterized by the DNA marker BY93729, which in turn is a descendant of FTT86 (one of the main medieval branches in the previous diagram above). You can see the location of BY93729 on FTDNA’s Group Time Tree in the middle of the diagram below and here.
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| (Click to enlarge) |
There are 5 other men on this BY93729 branch (only 4 are shown above), but they all sit on a sub-branch (FT93645). The age estimate for the BY93729 branch is 1433 AD (range 1189-1616), and the age estimate for the descendant branch FT93645 is 1460 AD (range 1202-1650). As there is only a 27 year gap between these two "central estimates", this suggests that only a single generation exists between these two branches. In other words, the common ancestor of everyone on the BY93729 branch had at least two sons - one of the sons had the FT93645 mutation and passed it down to all his descendants, and the second son did not have this mutation and he was the ancestor of the Ryans of Scarteen. So the data currently suggests that these 5 members on adjacent branches are likely to be cousins of the Ryans of Scarteen, rather than descendants of the Ryans of Scarteen.
Testing another descendant of the Ryans of Scarteen (preferably a most distant relation to the current test-taker e.g. a 7th cousin) would probably identify a DNA marker characterizing a more downstream (i.e. recent) branch and might even identify the specific DNA markers passed down by the Earliest Known Ancestor (EKA) of the Ryans of Scarteen (Thaddeus Ryan 1642-1740).
Could you be related to the Ryans of Scarteen? Do the Big-Y test and find out!
Ryans of Ballymackeogh
The second of our new test-takers with an extensive lineage is a descendant of the Ryans of Ballymackeogh (ROB1). He has a 12-generation Ryan pedigree that is reasonably well-documented back to 1731, and possibly goes back further to the mid-1500s. [3]
The Ryans of Ballymackeogh, were established in County Tipperary by the mid-1600s. In 1814 William Ryan of Ballymackeogh married Anne, daughter of Reverend John Pennefather, rector of St Johns, Newport, county Tipperary. They had five sons and four daughters. Their second son, John, married his cousin, Louisa, daughter of Major Kingsmill Pennefather of Knockinglass, county Tipperary. The new test-taker is their great great grandson.
Here is the (anonymized) pedigree for test-taker ROB1:
1. Mahown O'Mulryan (c1550; according to Callinan, The Four Tipperary Septs, pg 106)2. Dermot O'Mulryan (c1580; received a pardon in 1602 according to Callinan, The Four Tipperary Septs, pg 106)3. William Ryan (c1620)4. Daniel Ryan (c1660-1731) m Honor Ewer5. William Ryan (c1700-1765) m Elizabeth Newstead6. Ewer Ryan (1730-1802) m Elizabeth Margrath7. William Ryan (c1770-1835) m Anne Pennefather8. John Pennefather Ryan (1821-1873) m Louisa Kingsmill Pennefather9. John Pennefather Ryan (1847-1927) m Jessie Gertrude Bliss10. Casimer Edric Pennefather Ryan (1891-1940) m Lillian Martha Constance Terry11. Father of test-taker12. Test-taker ROB1
The Big-Y results for ROB1 show that he too belongs to Group 2. In addition, he sits on a branch of the Tree of Mankind characterized by the DNA marker BY101266, which in turn is a descendant of FT194987, and this in turn is a descendant of FTT86 (one of the main medieval branches in the previous diagram above). You can see the location of BY101266 on FTDNA’s Group Time Tree in the middle of the diagram below and here.
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| (Click to enlarge) |
The age estimate for BY101266 is 1450 AD (range 1206-1633). There are 6 other group members on this branch (only 2 are shown in the diagram above - a Smith & a Fuller), and they branched off sometime between 1450 and 1704 (the age estimate for the descendant branch BY75646 – not shown above). So these test-takers could conceivably be descendants of the Ryan’s of Ballymackeogh.
Testing another descendant of the Ryans of Ballymackeogh (preferably a most distant relation to the current test-taker e.g. a 5th or 6th cousin) might identify a DNA marker characterizing a more downstream (i.e. recent) branch that might be more closely associated with the Earliest Known Ancestor (EKA) of the Ryans of Ballymackeogh (Mahown O'Mulryan c1550).
Of note, tester ROB1 has 4 Private Variants (i.e. unique SNPs), so it is likely that if other descendants of the Ryans of Ballymackeogh were to test, additional branches downstream of BY101266 are likely to be identified.
Could you be related to the Ryans of Ballymackeogh? Do the Big-Y test and find out!
Summary & Conclusions
This new data tells us the following:
- It places the Ryans of Scarteen and the Ryans of Ballymackeogh on specific branches of the genetic family tree for Group 2
- It identifies their nearest genetic neighbours who may be a) related (via a more distant common ancestor), or b) descended from these extensive lineages. This new information gives these project members a new direction for future research in the documentary records.
- It helps refine the age estimates for all of the branches within the genetic family tree for Group 2. This happens with each new set of Big-Y results and thus these age estimates are constantly evolving, giving us progressively better estimates for the age of each branch. For example, looking back over previous posts, the age estimate for the overarching DNA marker (M756) was initially 650 AD, then 870 AD, then 1200-1300, then 900, and now 950 AD. As the technology advances, and more data becomes available for analysis, these estimates will improve further. In the future, we can anticipate that the Central Estimate will not change much, but the range on either side will get smaller and smaller until it may be as low as +/-50 years.
- the Ryans of Scarteen do share a common ancestor with the Ryans of Ballymackeogh, and he passed down the upstream DNA marker FTT86 to both families. This common ancestor was born about 1037 AD (range 778-1246) and 20 of his descendants currently sit on the FTT86 branch, including the Ryans of Scarteen and Ballymackeogh (see below).
The 3 diagrams below shows what the genetic family tree for Group 2 currently looks like, with these new results highlighted. This diagram only includes people who have done the Big-Y test i.e. 57 of the 136 people in Group 2 (and its subgroups 2a-2g) and who have also allowed their data to be publicly displayed. If the other people in Group 2 did the Big-Y test, we would have a much more granular picture with a lot more sub-branches, and some of these could have age estimates within the last 200 years (the usual reach of modern Irish records).
Also included in the diagram is a red dot for the EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor) associated with each branch (where the test-taker has supplied that information). From this it is clear that most Ryan pedigrees hit a Brick Wall around the 1800 timepoint, and thus have a gap of about 900 years between their EKA and the common ancestor of all Group 2 Ryans.
The Ryans of Scarteen and Ballymackeogh stand out from the rest, in that their red dot EKA goes back further in time than most other branches. This potentially helps the genealogical research of their nearest genetic neighbours. And this is the reason why we need to test extensive lineages – the more extensive lineages we have in the genetic family tree, the stronger the scaffolding becomes.
Also included in the diagram is a red dot for the EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor) associated with each branch (where the test-taker has supplied that information). From this it is clear that most Ryan pedigrees hit a Brick Wall around the 1800 timepoint, and thus have a gap of about 900 years between their EKA and the common ancestor of all Group 2 Ryans.
The Ryans of Scarteen and Ballymackeogh stand out from the rest, in that their red dot EKA goes back further in time than most other branches. This potentially helps the genealogical research of their nearest genetic neighbours. And this is the reason why we need to test extensive lineages – the more extensive lineages we have in the genetic family tree, the stronger the scaffolding becomes.
But even with these extensive lineages, the most we have currently achieved is getting back to the 1500s. And that still leaves a gap of about 600 years between the EKA and the Ryan Group 2 progenitor. We’re only about half-way back to the common ancestor for Group 2. That leaves 600 years of Ryan ancestors unaccounted for.
But if we are lucky, we may be able to connect with a Ryan lineage documented in the medieval Irish genealogies (if one exists) and if that happens we could connect to centuries of documented Ryan ancestors going back into medieval times, and even back further to the introduction of the written record in Ireland (600 AD or thereabouts). This has been partially achieved with ancestral lines associated with the O Conor Don line and the Mac Dermots of Moylurg. Descendants of both royal lines have been Big-Y tested and their Big-Y results support the integrity of the documented Mac Dermot line back to the progenitor of the surname, and back even further for another 500 or so years before that. You can read about this in a 2-part article on the FTDNA blog (here and here).
Another consideration is ancient DNA. Huge advances have been made in the field of analysing ancient remains, and more and more samples are being tested and the results added to the genetic family tree / Tree of Mankind / Y-Haplotree. You can see this by clicking on the Ancient Connections tab on the Group Time Tree here. As more data from ancient remains (which have been carbon-dated) are added to the tree, the age estimates for all the branches will improve and it would not be surprising if we were eventually able to identify some ancient Ryan remains from the medieval period. Which branch of the Group 2 tree will they sit on? Who knows.
But if we are lucky, we may be able to connect with a Ryan lineage documented in the medieval Irish genealogies (if one exists) and if that happens we could connect to centuries of documented Ryan ancestors going back into medieval times, and even back further to the introduction of the written record in Ireland (600 AD or thereabouts). This has been partially achieved with ancestral lines associated with the O Conor Don line and the Mac Dermots of Moylurg. Descendants of both royal lines have been Big-Y tested and their Big-Y results support the integrity of the documented Mac Dermot line back to the progenitor of the surname, and back even further for another 500 or so years before that. You can read about this in a 2-part article on the FTDNA blog (here and here).
Another consideration is ancient DNA. Huge advances have been made in the field of analysing ancient remains, and more and more samples are being tested and the results added to the genetic family tree / Tree of Mankind / Y-Haplotree. You can see this by clicking on the Ancient Connections tab on the Group Time Tree here. As more data from ancient remains (which have been carbon-dated) are added to the tree, the age estimates for all the branches will improve and it would not be surprising if we were eventually able to identify some ancient Ryan remains from the medieval period. Which branch of the Group 2 tree will they sit on? Who knows.
But time will tell.
Next Steps & further testing
We continue to look for descendants of Ryan families with extensive pedigrees. If you are related to one of the other Ryan families mentioned above, please get in touch. We may be able to sponsor a test for you (if we have enough donations in the General Fund).
We need more people in general to do the Big-Y test. Even if you don’t have an extensive pedigree, your Big-Y results can add a lot to the project. They may identify additional sub-branches, and they will help refine the age estimates for all the existing branching points. Take advantage of the Black Friday Sales (29th Nov 2024) which promise substantial reductions in the price of upgrades to the Big-Y test. Project members in Groups 2c and 2g are particularly encouraged to take advantage of these discounts.
Lastly, here are three things that you should make sure you have done:
We need more people in general to do the Big-Y test. Even if you don’t have an extensive pedigree, your Big-Y results can add a lot to the project. They may identify additional sub-branches, and they will help refine the age estimates for all the existing branching points. Take advantage of the Black Friday Sales (29th Nov 2024) which promise substantial reductions in the price of upgrades to the Big-Y test. Project members in Groups 2c and 2g are particularly encouraged to take advantage of these discounts.
Lastly, here are three things that you should make sure you have done:
- If you don't see your name in any of the diagrams, you need to adjust your settings in order to allow display of your anonymized results. Instructions here (item 7).
- If you haven’t done so already, post your pedigree on our Pedigrees Page (or send it to me and I will do it for you - mauricegleeson AT doctors.org.uk).
- If you don't see your EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor) in the diagrams, you need to adjust your settings to include him in your profile. Instructions here (item 3).
Happy Thanksgiving!
Maurice Gleeson
Derek Ryan
Jamee Ryan Carlin
Dave Cushing
Nov 2024
Links & References
[1] There are several men called Ryan on adjacent branches (namely PH1901 & Y85741) but these may be NPEs (i.e. Non-Paternity Events resulting in surname switches) – only further Big-Y results will help answer this question.
[2] See Burke’s Landed Gentry of Great Britain & Ireland 1912 here – has pedigrees for Ballymackeogh, Inch, Scarteen & Kilhefernan
[3] See Burke’s Landed Gentry of Great Britain & Ireland 1912 here – has pedigrees for Ballymackeogh, Inch, Scarteen & Kilhefernan
